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[personal profile] sophiaserpentia
1. The idea that God is fundamentally and eternally superior to and separate from humankind, will inherently and inevitably lend support to the concept of fundamental superiorities within humankind, particularly those along the lines of gender, race, and economic status.

2. Furthermore, this idea will inherently and inevitably lend rhetorical justification for the use of violence as an acceptable means of promoting an agenda labeled as "holy."

crossposted to my journal and crossposted to [livejournal.com profile] convert_me

Date: 2004-08-18 09:56 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] azaz-al.livejournal.com
I find it interesting that your "friend" at convert_me assumes this means you think people can merge with God in the future. He doesn't get it - that still states that there is a separation that will be healed. I personally would posit that God is already in all people RIGHT NOW, that they just keep themselves down by not realizing it.
Of course, I never bother talking to ariston because I think he's a jerk.

Date: 2004-08-18 11:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophiaserpentia.livejournal.com
Yep. There are two ways of opposing the idea that God and humanity are fundamentally separate. The first is to say say that they are not fundamentally separate; the second is to say that there is no God.
(deleted comment)

Date: 2004-08-19 07:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophiaserpentia.livejournal.com
What of the idea that God and humanity are presently separate, but not eternally and perhaps not even fundamentally?

I would assess this by evaluating the proposed reconciliation. Either the individual human plays an essential role in the reconciliation, or she does not.

The first case works out the same as saying that any "separation" is only misperception of the reality that no such separation really exists.

The second case works out the same as the original problematic assertion -- if God and only God is capable of "lifting up" a human, then there is still a fundamental rift and God is unquestionably superior.

Date: 2005-08-16 03:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] acheron-hades.livejournal.com
(Excuse me following up to a pretty old comment..)

Interesting cosmological interpretation of this: the evolution of the universe is teleologically driven, and will eventually complete when the whole thing forms an extremely complicated single object at the end of time. The trajectory of all particles are actually determined by that end state (perhaps think of it as a backwards explosion), so the end state is "God." Further, if there's a holographic nature to the universe, then it might be possible for individuals to form very low-resolution but complete "images" of the final state well before the end, in which case they will also have "experienced God."

That's a quick and dirty summary of Alan Carter's take (http://www.reciprocality.org/thirdage/) on the whole issue; he also reckons the demiurge / Worker is actually abstract, deductive reasoning, which so often in our current Fallen state tends to override more pragmatic inductive reasoning ("wisdom")..

Date: 2005-08-16 03:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] acheron-hades.livejournal.com
I personally would posit that God is already in all people RIGHT NOW, that they just keep themselves down by not realizing it.

That's pretty much my take on the whole thing, but on the other hand that process of realization usually seems to result in various changes to the mind and body (some drastic, some subtle; some rapid and some less so) which can certainly feel like one has been entered by God, or found the Tao, or had one's soul recollected (http://www.livejournal.com/users/acheron_hades/134759.html), or whatever. So I guess it's a kind of verbal shorthand that's prone to misinterpretation — as Chuang Tzu says, there is "no need to help Tao along", which seems to be the root problem underlying all proselytizing.

Date: 2005-08-16 03:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] azaz-al.livejournal.com
(I had to go look this up - this is an old post!)
The separation idea is in most forms of mythology, and there is a separation, but it seems to be internal - between something in ourselves and what we consciously perceive. IOW, I see God as internal and not external.

Date: 2005-08-16 03:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] acheron-hades.livejournal.com
Yeah, I was chasing links in [livejournal.com profile] sophiaserpentia's journal, and didn't check the age of the entries - oops!

The separation idea is in most forms of mythology, and there is a separation, but it seems to be internal - between something in ourselves and what we consciously perceive.

Yes .. fear-based conditioning and belief systems seems to be kernel of it.

IOW, I see God as internal and not external.

I was just describing a cosmology (http://www.livejournal.com/users/sophiaserpentia/435018.html#t4729162) which allows God to be both - another duality nuked! ;-)

Date: 2005-08-16 03:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] azaz-al.livejournal.com
Well, I do also see collective human (or intelligent, maybe) consciousness as a possible sort of "god". But I see it more as then the individual being a part of the whole and not separate from the whole, as much as the individual may experience oneself as singular.

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