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Mar. 21st, 2004 02:07 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
sophiaserpentiaPope John Paul II said Saturday the removal of feeding tubes from people in vegetative states was immoral, and that no judgment on their quality of life could justify such "euthanasia by omission."
Fantastic. Does that mean the Vatican will be helping families pay the catastrophic medical bills of keeping a person alive, for years or decades, when there is literally no hope of recovery?
The Pope called for more money for a "cure," but there is no "cure" for massive brain damage. Small amounts of damage can repair themselves over time, amazingly enough, but if the prefrontal cortex is destroyed, there's no one home and there never will be.
Why is our culture so afraid of death? Death is part of life. Death is fore-ordained at the moment of birth. To be honest I am not afraid of being dead, I am not afraid of the thought that who I am will one day disappear into oblivion. It's the process of dying itself I'm afraid of. All that pain and panic.
Fantastic. Does that mean the Vatican will be helping families pay the catastrophic medical bills of keeping a person alive, for years or decades, when there is literally no hope of recovery?
The Pope called for more money for a "cure," but there is no "cure" for massive brain damage. Small amounts of damage can repair themselves over time, amazingly enough, but if the prefrontal cortex is destroyed, there's no one home and there never will be.
Why is our culture so afraid of death? Death is part of life. Death is fore-ordained at the moment of birth. To be honest I am not afraid of being dead, I am not afraid of the thought that who I am will one day disappear into oblivion. It's the process of dying itself I'm afraid of. All that pain and panic.
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Date: 2004-03-21 12:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-03-21 06:38 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-03-21 12:30 am (UTC)In the light hearted comedy Monkey Bone, the main character slips into a coma and his sister is prepared to pull the plug after 90 days of being under.. I woke up after 97 days.
This being said, sounds like the Pope is over simplifying the matter.
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Date: 2004-03-21 02:45 am (UTC)I cannot even conceive of the horror it must be to have a 15 year gap in one's life. Especially a gap without awareness of the passage of time and the vast nature of the changes that are happening and shaping the world and those close to you Hmmm... March 1989. Super Nintendo did not yet exist. The Soviet Union still existed. The Berlin Wall was still standing. I was in my third semester of college. My dad was still alive. My son was only 10 months old.
A couple of years I could deal with, but anymore than that would be, for me, the equivalent of waking up in hell.
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Date: 2004-03-21 06:55 am (UTC)Well, I'll have to take the opposite stance in some sense here - I've always thought suspended-animation time-travel into the future would be an amazing experience. Well, ok, as long as total ecological collapse hadn't happened in the meantime.
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Date: 2004-03-22 03:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-03-21 04:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-03-22 03:42 pm (UTC)One of the big reasons I have such a relatively short cut off time is due to my own psychological problems. At least a third of the time I live in a world that seems like it should be familiar but appears altered in weird and hard to define ways. It is most unpleasant. I really do not even want to think about how it would feel if everything that seemed familiar really was different in ways that I could never fully grok due to lack of any common experiences.
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Date: 2004-03-21 05:51 pm (UTC)What concerned me the most about this, is that the decision of whether to continue or discontinue life support is an individual and family matter that is best evaluated, in my opinion, case by case. A pronouncement from the Pope on this issue will short-circuit that decision for thousands of families. I know the Pope was trying to be compassionate, but I do not think that stepping in and making such personal decisions in a sweeping way like this is truly compassionate.
Someday I will need to learn more about your experience. Of course I am very glad that you are still with us...
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Date: 2004-03-21 02:02 am (UTC)Yes, shortly after it begins sending child support to all the children who were unintentionally conceived by parents using the rhythm method.
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Date: 2004-03-21 04:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-03-21 05:57 pm (UTC)Secondly I'm concerned about the burden that this will surely place on many families who may have otherwise decided, for better or worse, to let their loved one pass on. By the grace of God I have not been in that position yet, but I am not going to tell a family in that situation what I think they should do.
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Date: 2004-03-21 06:17 am (UTC)bl
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Date: 2004-03-21 06:03 pm (UTC)It is a hard position to be in -- I've never faced it, but Dee told me of what it was like when her father was taken off of life support.
But, as difficult as it would be, in the absence of a loved one's explicit wishes, I would not want anyone else to step in and make that decision for me. I find that extremely problematic, ethically.
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Date: 2004-03-22 12:54 am (UTC)(Well, but then, children wouldn't be able to take that decision beforehand, anyway, so... *sigh*)
bl
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Date: 2004-03-21 10:15 am (UTC)i had just absense seizures as a small child, and then partials when i hit puberty (around 16 or so)... and in my mid-20s i started having the grand-mals and that is where i lost the time...
to this day, i am *still* hearing about friends i had (that i have no memory of), and i have a horrible time of recognising names and faces (and it doesn't matter how much i like/love a person, they can still be gone from my memory)....
i lost a lot of english too, from the damage done by the seizures, and it took me a couple years to relearn some of it... and i am still slow to talk if i am having a "bad head day"... i can *type* faster than i can talk actually...
brain damage, EVEN THIS LITTLE BIT I HAD is a very very scarey thing.... i can remember the first time my little sister asked me about a friend of mine in NC, and i didn't know who she was talking about, and she said "that gay kid, Nick, Christ you two went *everywhere* together"...
apparently he and i were inseperable.. for the 6 months or so that i was living in Wilmington, we were constantly on the fon and going out together... but when i left NC, i had cut off all contact with him, and never spoke to him again, and forgot he EXISTED even until this day... because even though my sister has told me a lot about him, i have no memory of ever being with him, and i can't remember his face....
when i first heard about him, i just got the chills.. and i sat and shook for almost a half hour because it just seemed like such a horrible thing for me to do, to cut someone off like that... but before i started on meds for the seizure, that was just life for me...
i've lost a *lot* of people this way...
once i started on the meds (once they found something that *worked* for me), i can remember going into the bathroom one day, to pee, and just glancing into the mirror and nearly screaming... because i was a 30 year old woman.... i hadn't had any conscious memory of my face for at least 6 years or so... so i had not seen my face gradually aging, in my memory... all i knew was what i looked like younger, and so when i looked into the mirror, *that* is who i expected to see...
and yes, i know, a lot of people have a sudden eureka moment like that, where they will look into a mirror one day, or a foto of themselves, and realise how they've aged... but this was different... i have little memory of any of those years... i was lucky to go through the motions of living while i was sick with the grand-mals... i'd have 2-3 a day.. and in-between, i might eat or sleep, or *maybe* try to talk with a friend... but nothing else... its just really scarey....
and whenever i hear about coma patients waking up after so long, i just get the chills and think "god, i'm so sorry".... i know it sounds evil, but sometimes i just think it is better for people's bodies to be allowed to die, than to have to suffer through a life with brain-damage...
when i was last talking to my neurologist, we were discussing the brain-damage that i would recieve when the tumor is removed... and i was doing pretty good for a bit (i.e. no crying) ;-) but then i had one question to ask him, that made me get very shakey, i said:
"do you know how many times i have died?........ can you tell me who is going to wake up from the surgery?"
and he couldn't answer me, (of course!), he just looked at me, a little sad... and i added "Dawn is dead" (Dawn is our birth-name) "I'm Julie now.... is *Julie* going to wake up from the surgery, or will *she* be dead too?"..... and he said "honestly, sweetie, i can't tell you that... nobody can."
blech.
(sorry for rambling so much in your LJ)...
Juju & Co.
It may be hard to hear this, or even to believe it...
Date: 2004-03-21 01:04 pm (UTC)Re: It may be hard to hear this, or even to believe it...
Date: 2004-03-21 01:21 pm (UTC)but there are people who are not lucky to have as much of their brain as i do... and once my amygdala is removed (if/when i get the amygdalo-hippocampectomy), i really don't know what sorts of emotions, functions, that i will be able to access... that is a really terrifying thing to think about...
i come across all this research on rage disorders and impluse control corresponding with damage to the amygdalas(sp)... it makes me evaluate again and again, what is meant by quality of life...
Juju & Co.
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Date: 2004-03-21 06:09 pm (UTC)I can't imagine facing what you have gone through, the decision you are facing now. You seem to me a very strong person, despite the illness... I believe you will persevere.
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Date: 2004-03-21 10:50 am (UTC)My parents are just reaching the age of 65. This means they can get social security, and medical aide. Yet still it is very expensive.
*treading carefully* The Pope does also call for a "distribution of wealth" in this world. As far as a more fair and balanced use of money. This could lighten the load for people with medical expenses etc. Why is it so expensive? I don't really think it should be.
As well, *deep breath* my Grandmother died of alzheimers. We know it leads to one thing. A vegetative state. The person, goes back literally to the fetal position. It could have saved alot of money, and depression to euthanise her. There is no cure!!!
Yet honestly? This may seem very heartless of me, but it isn't. I needed that. I needed to be there for her during this. Caring for someone is a huge lesson in compassion. I used to hate her. She was brutal to my father, to me at times.
Alot of healing took place during her illness. Alot of soul searching. Terror for me, watching her go through this, it is hereditery?
My parents and I used this time to rebuild our relationship, we all used this time to forgive her. Before this I hadn't really talked with them for ten years.
She was mean and angry in her illness. She didn't know me, I was the girl in the picture on the wall. Yet I learned how to care for her anyways, how to love her. Patience, compassion.
My daughter was given time with her. Before this she really had no patience for children. She changed. Loved my child. They had some wonderfull times.
We were able to love her completely and care for her. Something we would not have done, if it weren't for that extra time. When she died, I wept. I may not have done that hadn't I been given this time.
I truly believe we go through life and experience things for a reason. She went through her illness for a reason of her own.
To cut off her life would have been humane? Or would it realy have been? To die, with all of us feeling badly for the way she treated us. Or to have the time to reconsider.
I don't want to die. In my Buddhist studies, I have trouble with this. I cannot leave now. My child needs me. I feel panic at the thought of dying. Hopeing and praying, I can stay until she is on her feet and old enough to care for herself. Otherwise, I would be fine.
I hope I do not offend~
Peace, love and light~~
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Date: 2004-03-21 06:16 pm (UTC)I admit that in my original post I may have painted with too wide of a brush -- but honestly, I am not saying that euthanasia is always the best course of action, nor am I saying that it would have been in the case of your grandmother.
That's precisely the point -- it is not my judgment or decision to make. You and the rest of your family are the ones in the best position to make the most suitable decision in the case of your grandmother. Not someone -- no matter how well meaning he may be -- sitting halfway around the world.
I support the goal of finding more equitable ways to distribute wealth. It is an honorable goal, and is particularly needed now in the area of medical care, where there is a great deal of disparity in the world.
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Date: 2004-03-21 07:33 pm (UTC)*lady wipes her brow*
What can we do though, to support a more equitable sharing? This is something I have pondered. Writing congressman. We wrote about my parents. 6000 dollars quarterly for there medical insurance. That does not include deductables.
It really sucks the way that works. Even now, with medical benefits, it is still way too expensive.
As far as decisions. I would wonder really if all families could make the right decision? Stay and take care of this sick person. Or let them die, and move on. Sometimes we humans take the easier route. Rather then the right route.
I was lucky, I could leave my job and move. Then to have the time to care for her. Or be willing to deal with it all. Gosh it would have been easy to close my eyes and turn away. Alzheimers is frightening.
Without the extra time, alot of issues would have never been resolved. It is sad to say, but as a family, we didn't like her much. My father was very abusive when I was small. He learned this from her treatment of him. She never thought much of him or us. He was her only child though.
The chain is there. Because she was ill, she actually gave us all a chance. For resolution, and forgiveness. Could I write? She somewhat created this nightmare-the abuse, then gave us the opportunity to repair it. Even understand her better. She had a hard life.
We may have chosen. Euthanasia, and missed this opportunity. Because of the earlier bad feelings.
Lastly, the ideal of being forced. To care for someone. Our relative. This seems sad. That we should feel forced to do anything for anyone. My Great aunt Isabelle died last year. Due to her sizable estate, they are fighting over it. One woman actually applied for 130,000$ by giving a list of her gas expensives from taking her shopping or getting her hair cut. These are things we should do for someone because we love them, not because we expect a share after they die.
Taking care of each other should come naturally? Why should there be the issue. For society in general.
One thing I learned from my grandmother and my great aunt. They really took care of themselves. They accumulated enough for security. Even in there older years. This is wise, for growing up in there time. The men passed on early. They lived long lives, and took care~~
Thank You!!!
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Date: 2004-03-21 07:48 pm (UTC)I don't really have a good answer for this. It is a dilemma, certainly. But I think that on the whole it is perhaps better to trust in human nature, and allow people to have the opportunity to do the right thing.
Some of the people on my friends list have good reason to doubt that their families would act in their best interest if they are in this situation. I honestly don't know what to say to that, except that I fear that it is perhaps a worse evil for an authority to make a statement that removes any possible options from consideration.
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Date: 2004-03-22 10:27 am (UTC)I always enjoy Your touch with reality~~
Peace and light~~
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Date: 2004-03-21 11:44 am (UTC)Proverbial mixing of proverbial fruits.
Date: 2004-03-21 11:49 am (UTC)- His Holiness is bound to speak on this matter, regardless of his own intimate opinion, as the leader of the Catholic Church, the Vicar of Christ.
- As far as we know, Christ never euthanized anyone. Even in cases which, in ancient context, were as grave as vegetative state (such as leprosy and insanity), Christ made an effort to heal them. The precedent was set: his followers healed people, rather than give up on them, to this day.
- Catholic belief is that human life does not belong to the person; it belongs to God. Human beings cannot give themselves life, neither then can they take it, be it their own or other's.
- I daresay it's not fear of death that motivated this declaration from John Paul II, but rather fear of the growing idea that human life is not sacred and can be disposed of when no longer considered "worthy". This idea is not exclusive to Catholics.
You certainly destroyed that poor straw man. Poor thing, it never had a chance...Re: Proverbial mixing of proverbial fruits.
Date: 2004-03-21 06:27 pm (UTC)This is an excellent point. But perhaps it bears pointing out that we do not have the healing ability which Jesus was said to possess? He could, it was said, raise a man from the dead. If so, he had no cause to "give up" on someone.
Which brings me to my next point -- is it truly "giving up" to allow someone to die? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Which is the point I've made in my comments above -- a sweeping statement in this matter is, on the whole, an injustice.
I too consider human life to be sacred. What does it mean to honor that sacredness? I question whether it is honorable to consign someone, and who is unsuited to live such an existence by the particularity of his or her disposition, to live in a state against his or her will where he or she is entirely dependent on machines and constant nursing care -- an existence which is by all accounts extremely humiliating and undignified.
Some people might be suited to such a life; others are not. Does a sweeping statement asserting that only certain options are acceptable no matter what, honor the sacredness of the lives of those who would be absolutely miserable existing in such a way? Every case is unique; every case deserves to be judged on its own.
You certainly destroyed that poor straw man.
Perhaps it seems callous to consider the financial burden such a situation places on a family. Having been very recently in bankruptcy court, due largely to medical bills, perhaps I am not objetive enough to comment on that issue.
In the arms of the right person...
Date: 2004-03-21 01:05 pm (UTC)Re: In the arms of the right person...
Date: 2004-03-21 06:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-03-21 08:37 pm (UTC)freak.
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Date: 2004-03-22 03:47 am (UTC)