on why you do not have the right to insist on knowing everything about the person you're dating

[sophiaserpentia]

There was a large (and still ongoing) discussion in sparkindarkness's journal yesterday about if or when trans people are obliged to declare their trans status -- particularly in the case of someone who is post-operative transsexual who is beginning to date. I just wanted to distill some of the excellent points made.

Here's where I stand: you do not have the right to demand that someone disclose that they are post-op transsexual, not even someone you're dating. It is none of your business, because it doesn't concern you. You have the right to expect disclosure on matters that do concern you, such as whether or not the person you are dating has an incurable contagious disease. But not on things that will not affect you or will not make any tangible impact on the relationship.

Dozens of people posted pretty much the same comment: that they would be disappointed if they were dating someone post-op transsexual who did not disclose. They see it as an honesty issue: whyyyy wouldn't the person I'm dating feel they could share everything with me?

Thing is, most trans people have been burned time and time again by people they loved and trusted and thought loved them in return. (I subscribe to Andrew Vachss' view on love, that love is the way you act rather than the way you say you feel, so to kick your child out of your house because you do not approve of how they identify is to show that you do not love them, no matter what words you say.) Disclosure could cost them everything, even though someone who is post-op transsexual probably views the matter as being resolved and therefore of little relevance even in their own lives.

(As a non-op transsexual I disclose quite early, but that's only because none of my options are really all that great, IMO.)

And to those who say, "Well, just don't form relationships with people who are not accepting," I would say (1) circumstances and options are not always that open, (2) people deserve love, touch, and affection, and are not required to hold out until they find the absolute perfect partner before receiving it, and (3) you might think you know how people will react but you can never know for sure.

Accepting what I'm saying here means accepting that the world is not a perfect place, and that relationships are not always ideal.

But there's also very good reasons why someone you're in a relationship with should not be "required" to disclose anything that doesn't concern you. My views on relationships are inspired by the words of Thay Hanh on the Buddhist perspective: your spouse is an honored guest in your home and in your life. Guests are under no obligation to stay, and may leave or withdraw anything they bring into your life entirely free of blame or guilt. (I know when people bind themselves together financially it throws a bit of a cog into the ideal, but the general spirit of this idea can still be respected.) This lack of obligation extends, naturally, to disclosure of anything that does not concern you.

Comments

[archanglrobriel.livejournal.com]

Agreed with the personal observation that I have found that the closet in general, and in specific, is a real soul killing place to be and even though many transpeople can and do go stealth - I believe it to be inherently toxic as a long term life strategy. I understand it - lord, how I do understand it - but it is difficult to work through with regard to forming a genuine bond with anyone. It keeps people at arm's length all the time and even when people say "I really like you" that's like the warmth of a fireplace you can only see through the window. It never quite warms you, never quite reaches you. That's a fairly awful place to live for the rest of your life. Of course, the world being an imperfect place, it may well be more comfortable than the alternatives so I ain't gonna judge anybody else for their decisions. I am, however, going to hope that someday they find someone that they feel they can come out to, and who'll adore them just as they are, wholly as they are.

[sophiaserpentia.livejournal.com]

I don't believe that stealth is inherently toxic. It *can* be, depending on the person in question. I don't know, actually, what percentage of post-op trans people live in total stealth. I suspect in practice its a relatively small percentage.

Thing is, when you're trans it feels like no one can see you "wholly as you are" if in even part of their mind everyone sees you as someone who was assigned a different gender at birth.

Take someone with a congenital heart disorder. It's not necessarily a part of "who they are," but it affects the way they live, and might affect the way people around treat them. If in early adulthood they undergo an operation that fixes that disorder, the issue is for them resolved, it's in the past. They may not even think about it much if at all.

[archanglrobriel.livejournal.com]

*nod* As a friend said to me once "Before I transitioned, I was invisible and that was unbearable. Then I transitioned and suddenly people could see me as I truly always had been, but my past was invisible. But if I tell them about my past, I see them starting to invalidate who I am, to make me invisible again in the present - a present I've fought and bled for the right to. So now what do I do?" And really, there's no good answer for that.
It -should- be completely irrelevant and it shouldn't impact the way people around you, in your life, will treat you if they find out - but it does. It's very frustrating/infuriating. Our culture doesn't handle gender anything at all well, not diversity, not theory, not practice, not comprehension - nada. The general ignorance and ugliness of the willfully stupid is friggin' rampant. To insist that there's only one way to navigate that? No. It makes me really mad when people insist that there's only one True Path through life. It's the same thing that makes me want to smack the folks who out people or who roll their eyes whenever a celebrity like Ricky Martin does come out of the closet. Excuse me? Do you live his life? Do you know his heart? Do you understand what he's risking? No. And no two paths are the same, and everyone is trying to figure out how to walk theirs as best they can - so have some respect.
The only reason I would say someone should come out about their past, to use the congenital heart disorder analogy, is that not telling people about it is fine for most of your life, but there will likely come a time when you want to take off your shirt and go swimming. You want to have people around you who won't go "OMG, what's that scar??EEEEW!" Or have to worry that if they found out that you had that scar, they'd not only not want to swim with you in the same pool, they'd run off screaming and run around telling people about what a heart damaged horror story you are. That's a heckuva burden to bear when you're talking about someone you're dating - that if they knew, they wouldn't love you anymore. It also deprives people of the chance to show you that you're truly loved - completely - which is a wonderful thing. As a friend told me once "You're depriving yourself of allies by staying in the closet." And that's true.
That's all I'm saying. I guess it comes to an underlying sense of not wanting anyone to settle for being only partially loved and accepted just because of their trans status.
If they were my friend, I'd definitely ask them "Do you really want to be dating someone you thought would treat you differently if they knew you had a congenital heart disorder?" Just for myself, I've decided that I'd rather have one -true- friend with me that I knew had my back 100%, no matter what, than scores of admirers flocking to me that I had to worry about. But that's my decision and it's a fairly recent one, so I certainly am not going to cast stones at anyone else's decisions. This is all very difficult, often scary territory. I wish it weren't the case, but it is. *sigh*

[sophiaserpentia.livejournal.com]

"But if I tell them about my past, I see them starting to invalidate who I am, to make me invisible again in the present - a present I've fought and bled for the right to. So now what do I do?"

Yeah, there's a lot of truth in this.

I think society encourages people to act as though their nosiness overrides other people's need for privacy. And since people aren't going to stop being nosy, dilemmas are created where ideally they wouldn't exist, and when they arise often the options remaining all kind of suck.

[tori-vixen.livejournal.com]

Personally, I still feel like I'd want to know. I understand that can be a sore spot (and that's putting it lightly) but I feel its the same as knowing if my partner went to jail, or has a family history of diabetes. For me it goes on the lists of Important Things. Like the way I'm pretty upfront about being bisexual. No, not a come on, and no, not trying to have some kinda crazy sexual adventure, I just feel like if I'm going to be entirely honest with someone, then that's something they need to know.

Now, that being said, I don't think you'd have to tell a one-night-stand or someone that you were not serious with. I don't run around shaking hands and going, "Hi, I'm Vickie and I'm bisexual". Like, its not nessicary on the first date. But if it ever gets to the point of concidering marriage or the like, I think I'd want to know.

Of course, its always the other person's choice what they want to disclose.

Another example: my boyfriend keeps jokingly (at least I hope so) saying that he's killed a man. And I've told him in my entire sincerity that if he did and he doesn't tell me all about it up front, and I find something out later, I'm fucking out of there. Only time will actually tell on this one because he is a compulsive liar because he thinks it's funny. But I hope you see where I'm coming from.

I guess I just don't understand it from the trans point of view because I'm not trans. Like "you ain't ever been to the ghetto, so you don't understand the ghetto". So I'd respect anyone's opinion that actually was. Just sayin', I see the other side.

[sophiaserpentia.livejournal.com]

As I said above, I'm not sure what percentage of post-op transsexual people do not want to even tell their significant other. So this may be somewhat academic, in that the practicalities (not to mention the possibility of being outed by circumstance or malice, which just about anyone would consider worse than simply disclosing ourselves) of the situation make it impossible to avoid disclosure. I'm going to guess it's less than 25%, but I could be wildly, completely wrong.

Of course I would hesitate to draw comparisons between committing a crime and pursuing a medical treatment.

It could be simply that my idea of what constitutes healthy relationship behavior is colored by unpleasant experiences -- but I don't consider my own mental health to come second after anyone's desire to know things about me, including the people closest to me.

People keep mentioning this as a trust issue: how do I know I can trust someone if I learn they haven't told me something this big? It may or may not be big, but does it materially concern you? So I'd flip the trust question on its head and say, why can't you trust my decision on what to tell or not tell out of that which doesn't materially concern you?

[tori-vixen.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I was hesitant to use that example because of the "crime" part, but moreso because of the potential "un-truth" or "hiding" something.

And I think that's a big point. If I had a partner and I was so uncertain of their gender from birth, wouldn't that already be a sign that I didn't trust them? Like when people don't want to talk about past relationships. That was then, this is now.

I would just hope whoever I was with would feel comfortable telling me, because that is the kind of person I would want to be with. :)

[stacymckenna.livejournal.com]

how do I know I can trust someone if I learn they haven't told me something this big? It may or may not be big, but does it materially concern you? So I'd flip the trust question on its head and say, why can't you trust my decision on what to tell or not tell out of that which doesn't materially concern you?

This is where personal definitions of "materially concern" come into play. As mentioned below, children/procreation would be a material concern for some. Personally, I'd be more concerned with not being told about major conditions of my partner's past experience that helped shape their current emotional and psychological health and responses - because those responses do affect one's partner, really. Personally, I'd like to know what those formative forces are so I can better interact with my partner - avoid triggers and provide support where useful for *both* our sakes.

But then, I'm a data whore and like having as much data as possible up front. It's what I would need from my partner. I know plenty of people who are much more comfortable totally ignoring "before" and just play it by ear from "now" when they meet someone. Even when I try to do that the "why are you reacting so strongly right now?" usually involves an answer that requires some sort of "before" to make sense to me.

I certainly don't hold anything against folk who can function happily in relationships where it's all now and future based. I just don't happen to be one of them. I completely support every individual's right to never disclose anything from their past if they don't want to (barring obvious things like potential health threats to their partner, the mobster who's got the contract out on their head that's always popping up, you know ;P ). I just find for me lack of history makes things harder than necessary in the now.

[sophiaserpentia.livejournal.com]

As mentioned below, children/procreation would be a material concern for some.

Yes, certainly this is a matter where it is of concern to the partner, though it is the inability to reproduce which is the salient factor.


Personally, I'd like to know what those formative forces are so I can better interact with my partner - avoid triggers and provide support where useful for *both* our sakes.

This is a valid concern, and one of the reasons I think this is probably not common in practice (though again, I'm speculating when I say I think it's uncommon).

One who doesn't tell the people around them that one is trans will likely hear the occasional anti-trans sentiment and will probably keep objections to themselves -- a factor they will almost certainly consider when deciding whether or not to disclose. Non-disclosure might even still be easier for them. Which IMO is what this comes down to: trusting one's partner to choose the course of action which they feel is best for them.

It's ultimately not that huge a deal to the partner who isn't trans. It might seem so at the moment of disclosure, but over the long run, as days become months become years, even someone who is trans does not really spend a big part of the day dealing with it, and someone who is not trans will spend no time at all on it.

[stacymckenna.livejournal.com]

Agreed. ultimately, supporting your partner when they're hurting is supporting your partner when they're hurting, no matter what the trigger was. And most of us spend the bulk of our time doing other things in ANY relationship.

[akaiyume.livejournal.com]

even someone who is trans does not really spend a big part of the day dealing with it

WHAT?!?

People may not spend a lot of time directly dealing with oppression, but the attitudes of society, the weight of it is always there. That will affect a person. How much that affects their mental state in a way that then affects their partner is unique to each situation.

I'm agreeing with you that no one -even an intimate partner -has a right to demand someone disclose. Whether the issue is a case of societal hatred or more personal-type trauma, saying "you must tell me because how this affects your mood/mental state, etc affects me" is kinda like victim-blaming.

I just think it is really, really unnecessary, wrong, and even counter-productive to present transphobia (or any type of systematic oppression, really) as "not that big of a deal" to justify your right to disclose your personal information as you see fit and as is best for you. Because really, if transphobia were no big deal, this discussion wouldn't even be happening.

[sophiaserpentia.livejournal.com]

saying "you must tell me because how this affects your mood/mental state, etc affects me" is kinda like victim-blaming.

THANK YOU. I was trying to figure out why that argument bothered me, but you articulated it perfectly. It's hard, sometimes very very hard when someone you love is visibly suffering, but an adult has to be trusted when they say, "this is the approach I've found that works best for dealing with my trauma." Even a well-meaning partner can cross boundaries in a harmful way if they try to impose an unwelcome solution.


I just think it is really, really unnecessary, wrong, and even counter-productive to present transphobia ... as "not that big of a deal" to justify your right to disclose your personal information as you see fit and as is best for you.

*nods* I can see how my words above might come across that way.

Generally when a trans person begins transition, it is on the whole an affirming process and she or he finds a lot of stress beginning to heal. So, to use myself as an example, I've been living as a woman full-time for four years now, and I don't... think about it that much. I read blogs with news about the trans community and so forth, so on that level I think about trans-ness in a kind of abstract way. But my *own* transition is not something that takes up a large part of my time, since most of the details of it have already been handled, and it doesn't have a practical daily impact on the people who live with me.

As for the trauma... it's just one of many hurts that blend together in an overall mass of ick which flares up sometimes, but I feel like those wounds which were caused by being trans are a good way along towards being healed.

[akaiyume.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah I mis-understood what you were saying. I had thought the "it" in your last paragraph referred to anti-trans sentiment.

But my *own* transition is not something that takes up a large part of my time, since most of the details of it have already been handled, and it doesn't have a practical daily impact on the people who live with me.

That makes sense. You had medical and legal procedures done. They improved your life. As such -other than normalizing your life at a happier level- they don't have that big a daily impact. Sort of the whole point of doing them in the first place.

In a lot of ways, these discussions and the arguments brought up are fairly reminiscent of how people treated divorce -especially for women - about a hundred years ago (in this part of the world, at least.) Or the way some people will freak if they find out their once bi-curious but now heterosexual-identified partner had a same-sex relationship years and years ago. Kinda funny in the sad way how when something has stigma attached to it people who NEVER went through them can insist that they must constantly and forever be the defining point of someone else's life. But those things without stigma are expected to be accepted as being done and over when they are done and over.

[akaiyume.livejournal.com]

How soon do you disclose to your potential partners that you are a control freak who does not trust them to be able to take care of their own health concerns? *Every* medication, even occasionally used OTC ones come with side effects. Certain types of FOOD come with side effects (sugar rush, for example).

[sophiaserpentia.livejournal.com]

Bear in mind that I'm arguing for something I probably wouldn't do myself. Even though I have so far been non-op, that could change, but even if that does, I don't imagine myself choosing not to disclose.

Consider, though, that the Benjamin Standards originally called on transsexual people to live in total stealth, that is, to make up a new history for themselves and never disclose what they are going through, in order that their integration into society in their "new" gender would be complete.

[tori-vixen.livejournal.com]

I suppose understanding it that way, I would have to respect my S.O. It would really be case by case anyway, and not a hardfast rule.

[stacymckenna.livejournal.com]

I think for me it would become an issue depending on how long term/committed our relationship became. For instance, if I were to suddenly now find out my husband whom I've known since 1992 had something this significant (be it gender or congenital heart or whatever) and I'd never heard a word about it, I'd be horribly crushed, and there would be SERIOUS trust issues from then on. Now, that said, our relationship is such that I know people from his past, including family, so gender reassignment would be particularly difficult to hide as we discuss his childhood frequently. I realize in many cases for transsexuals, meeting the family is not really a concern, though the explanation of "Why are you alienated...?" could be. I would certainly want a long term partner to confide in me about these kinds of things if for no other reason so that I could be more effectively supportive for them when things inevitably are hurtful or difficult in their life at large because of this history. Similarly, I tend to reveal to anyone I'll be sleeping with that I have a history of sexual abuse, so that just in case they stumble across a trigger, they'll better know how to be supportive, and know it's not necessarily about them (and to give them the opportunity to not have to deal with that mess if they don't want to, of course). I'm certainly not OBLIGATED to, though, especially since I've mostly learned to cope with those twinges. I do it because that's what makes me feel *I'm* being appropriate because like an STD, I feel this DOES possibly affect them/us. The same is not necessarily true of a gender reassignment.

But when does a relationship switch from casual dating to long term committed? It's a hard thing to define. One is certainly under no obligation to reveal such a history to someone they've only just met, or perhaps dated a few times, even slept with. But the stronger and longer the relationship becomes, the more it would for me become an issue of trust.

The issue of I see them starting to invalidate who I am, to make me invisible again in the present - a present I've fought and bled for the right to - I recognize the truth in it, and yet I find it somehow fascinating and bizarre. Mostly because I do this with ALL people I know a history of, I think. I often want to hear about my friends/partners histories. It helps me understand how/who they've become today. Some of them were addicts and now live sober. Some were promiscuous and now live monogamously. There are any number of seemingly contradictory traits amongst those I know that evolved and changed in time. Even simple things like competitive athlete to desk jockey (ah, the ravages of time...). It makes me wonder if I'd really find gender reassignment more significant than "he played football in high school, and she used to dance ballet". I would like to think I'd find it more akin to "he used to get beat up for being the nerd in school, but now he's the head of a major tech company with a broad circle of loyal and honest friends" - a knowledge that helps me appreciate how much more the person feels comfortable in their life now.

[sophiaserpentia.livejournal.com]

More or less I'd have the same responses as I gave to tori_vixen above.

It's hard to imagine an intimate relationship where fairly significant items go unmentioned -- as I said above this is probably not a decision I would even see myself making -- but I'm acknowledging that there are important and valid reasons why someone would choose not to disclose, and should not IMO be judged if they do so.

[hearthstone.livejournal.com]

The only real reason I could think of for insisting would be if someone wanted to have biological children with their partner, because that would, as you say, concern them. And that would be the case if the person was unable to do that for whatever reason (infertility, sterilization, etc.), and really the person wouldn't necessarily have to specify why they couldn't do that. Otherwise I don't think it's any different from any other thing someone chose to keep private.

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

If a straight relationship is about to go sexual, I think knowing concerns me. Phalloplasty STILL doesn't provide a working penis for a transman.

Knowing what to expect when the drawers go down is important. And there would be a long talk about "how do you want me to relate to your body?"

With a post-op woman, no need.
A pre-op woman, see above. Let me know the equipment is nonstandard and how you prefer me to operate it.

(Sorry for mechanical metaphor, I just spent twenty minutes under the hood of my truck)

[sophiaserpentia.livejournal.com]

When a relationship is going to go sexual any male, trans or otherwise, should probably disclose if they do not have a functioning penis. For some people this wouldn't matter one whit, for others it would make a difference, and while being rejected for this reason kinda sucks (and I do know about how badly that rejection sucks but from the other direction, as a non-op trans woman) the fact of it is going to be discovered anyway. I don't know much about the clinical details of phalloplasty -- but I imagine that the occasional man who was male-assigned-at-birth needs it too.

[akycha.livejournal.com]

I subscribe to Andrew Vachss' view on love, that love is the way you act rather than the way you say you feel, so to kick your child out of your house because you do not approve of how they identify is to show that you do not love them, no matter what words you say.

I had to comment on how true this is, and also how incredibly gaslighting and reality-bending it can be when someone who is close to you (a parent, spouse, other family member)'s actions are completely at variance with their words. I think also we (as a culture) have a bad habit of acting as though words were actions, which gives them a peculiar weight when contrasted with, say, battering or abandonment. And this can be really difficult to deal with.

In terms of revealing past gender status, I think that if I were the partner, I would have a little difficultly only because I (of course) see myself as an eminently trustable person. However, I'd have to get over it: when I look at the dilemma from the other side, I am entirely of the belief that someone's past belongs to them, not to anyone else.

Personally and all gender issues aside, I deeply resent it when people demand access to my past.

[sophiaserpentia.livejournal.com]

I think also we (as a culture) have a bad habit of acting as though words were actions, which gives them a peculiar weight when contrasted with, say, battering or abandonment. And this can be really difficult to deal with.

It's a pattern that makes it much easier for abusers to get away with what they do -- which makes me think it's probably not a purely coincidental development. "But I SAID I love you! I SAID I'm sorry!" That's why it's so important to look at the actions. The only action that can really be conveyed in words is demonstration of where someone's sympathies lie. Are they mainly concerned with their own feelings? Or with someone else's?

But the wider pattern is important, too. For example, politicians lie and everyone knows that politicians lie. But somehow people still get tripped up when their favorite politician says one thing and then votes a different way or signs a law that does other than what they promised.

[revulo.livejournal.com]

These were all very interesting points, especially the Buddhist perspective that you linked.