sophiaserpentia | (no subject)

Look, I have to say something about the 'Ground Zero Mosque,' because frankly, what I'm seeing disgusts me to no end.

First of all, I'm appalled by the very fact that anyone opposes it. I am not personally a huge fan of Islam, any more than I'm a fan of Christianity, generally speaking; the two religions are about 97% identical and mainstream versions of both think I am hellbound. But I do think that Muslims, like Christians, as members of our society have the right to practice their religion openly, in peace.

Muslims were among the Americans killed on 9/11. Muslims are among the US forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. Muslims pay taxes (or avoid them, hehehe) just like everyone else in the US. To say that a mosque near Ground Zero is an 'affront' to survivors' families (1) overlooks the families of Muslims killed there and (2) papers over the distinction between peaceful Muslims and Islamist terrorists. It is thus a position rooted in sheer prejudice. Opposing the mosque near Ground Zero is like opposing a church near the spot where the Murrah building once stood in Oklahoma City.

Second of all, the ADL can take a flying leap into the Hudson River. They showed their true colors with their self-serving opposition to the recognition of the Armenian Genocide, and they show their true colors again by adding their voice to those of the haters on this issue.

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There are a few problems with this analogy, not the least of which is that the WTC is not a Christian or even religious symbol (unless perhaps one worships free market capitalism).

I think there are plenty of people who believe it is "inappropriate" to create an Islamic Cultural Center near ground zero yet find it far more inappropriate or even horrifying to call for actions to be taken to disallow its creation. Given that the principles Western society is supposedly built on aren't supposed to be a mirror of Muslim theocratic societies, saying the reaction is a mirror of probable Muslim theocratic reaction ought to be a cause for concern and analysis rather than feelings of justification, I would think.

Also, I don't think many people have said it was "simple bigotry." But clearly a significant part of the reaction is built upon a basic "insider-outsider" dynamic that places "Muslim American" in the "outsider" group.

Please give me an example of a non religious symbolic target in the muslim world.

The west is actually more bent out of shape with the deaths of innocent people than symbolism. The governments are more concerned with the financial and the political but the people of the west don't love civilians in offices getting killed.

I was speaking of the population most affected by the propaganda. Are you really expecting mom and pop to express horror at the rights of muslims to express bad taste being infringed upon? Im talking about reality not ideological perfection.

I think if you don't explain things better than using the word bigotry you have said "simple bigotry"

I live in NYC. Muslim Americans do as much or more to place themselves in the outsider group as whitey does to put them there. The Orthodox Jews in my neighborhood do it even better.

Well, the "muslim world" is a bit of a problematic concept, but one that immediately comes to mind as a bit more apt is the Burj Dubai/Khalifa.

If it were true that the west is "actually more bent out of shape with the deaths of innocent people than symbolism" it would be recognized that some of the innocent people killed have been Muslim. Thus, it's not as simple as you want to frame it.

I expect what "mom and pop" think to largely reflect what they're told in the media and what their political leaders say. The nationalization of the debate has been fueled by Tea Party activists, conservative pundits, Republican leadership, and the Fox News media machine. The earliest media account objecting to the building of the mosque I can find is by Mark Williams, a Tea Party activist and right-wing talk show host ( http://www.marktalk.com/blog/?p=9636 ) and the latest round of media attention, from what I can tell, is based on a Tweet by Sarah Palin. I have pretty low expectations for Mark and Sarah, but I have somewhat higher expectations for the Republican leadership and conservative pundits as a whole, and particularly for groups like the ADL. What you seem to take as a given I take as the important piece that could show variance from what we see.

Maybe

sophiaserpentia's analysis focused on bigotry (although I think talking about "self-serving opposition" complicates that somewhat) but I took your comment to be about the more general reaction. If that was not your intent my bad.

I think there's a pretty clear distinction between an ethno-religious minority seeking to preserve its distinctiveness and the majority treating an ethno-religious minority as second class citizens.

I don't think the trade center was actually a symbolic target at all. I think it was a financial one. The symbolism was to Attack "innocent" Americans on their own soil. Part of the reason that I picked the Dome of the Rock is that it is an actual target for Christian and Jewish terrorists. I don't think any financial target could rock the muslim world. But I don't know that. You're an academic. If you were also a terrorist what would you attack? Do you really think the Burj Kalifa would have the desired impact in the hearts of the Muslim mom and pops?

The point is that most of us (americans) are not seeing this as a Christian/Muslim conflict. Most of us are seeing it as a good team America vs bad team Muslim world because that is how it has been painted. The specific issue of the construction may be being inflamed by the tea party and Sarah Palin but the propaganda is almost a decade old. If you don't think the exact same propaganda is working the exact same way on the other side go take a trip.

Please find me a place any where on the planet anywhere in history where self segregation led to equal consideration by the majority. America is as close as it gets and we really aren't doing bad considering.