(no subject)

[sophiaserpentia]

The comments on my poll of yesterday have been extremely thought-provoking -- especially those of lady_babalon and that of akaiyume. Thank you!

I wanted to summarize some of my realizations on this subject since yesterday and sum things up a bit from comments that I made on this thread and elsewhere.

The connection between BDSM and yoga (and, we should perhaps add, martial arts) seemed to be immediately obvious to some, while non-existent to others. This may be because people who practice BDSM derive a wide range of results from it. Some see it mostly or entirely as a means of deriving physical pleasure. Others, such as myself, see it as much more than that -- it provides for us physical, emotional, and even spiritual pleasure.

One parallel that I mentioned to cruelly_kind is between the redemption offered by worshipping a god or goddess, who redeems by "forgiving sins" or "clearing karma"... and the karmic release one finds in offering submissive service. Both create a "karma-safe" realm in which the worshipper/submissive is free to grow and explore.

Much of BDSM is of course tied into the way the human animal works; the physique, the breath, the chemical side of the emotions, the wiring of neurons, and so forth. But yoga, qigong, and perhaps martial arts (which I do not have first hand experience of) are also means of tying in the workings of the human animal with subtler aspects of existence. In my experience these are more than simply activities that work on the same parts of the human body; they yielded very similar results. For me, being tied up and flogged, being dominated and pressed into service, were profoundly spiritual experiences. I also had spiritual insights from even a single experience of being dominant.

Another possible reason for the resistance is that people do not want to see the spiritual as tied so innately to the workings of the flesh. Certainly my chosen tradition of Gnosticism is very disparaging in this regard. Yet, karma, as experienced through the workings (and failings) of flesh, provide the only means by which we learn.

Throughout this topic I have been thinking of John of the Cross, who was able to grow spiritually from his experiences of torture at the hands of the Carmelites. He wrote, in "The Dark Night of the Soul":

2. In darkness, and secure,
by the secret ladder, disguised,
- ah, the sheer grace! -
in darkness and concealment,
my house being now all stilled.

3. On that glad night,
in secret, for no one saw me,
nor did I look at anything,
with no other light or guide
than the one that burned in my heart.

4. This guided me
more surely than the light of noon
to where he was awaiting me
- him I knew so well -
there in a place where no one appeared.
translated by Kieran Kavanaugh, OCD, and Otilio Rodriguez, OCD, revised edition (1991).

Perhaps, too, it is simply because I am trained as a mathematician to find patterns that aren't immediately obvious; this might lead me to readily conjecture patterns that don't exist.

Comments

[anarktikos.livejournal.com]

I'm reminded of a quote by Nietzsche, something along the lines of (paraphrased from memory): "one must chain the body to free the spirit."

[sophiaserpentia.livejournal.com]

Interesting that you bring him up, he often comes into my mind when I think of this topic too. Nietzsche angers me, because his thoughts cannot be easily dismissed and won't easily jive with my ideology. The anger is a clue that I need to explore his mindset more deeply.

The funny thing about Nietzsche

[anarktikos.livejournal.com]

is that, by his very nature, he jibes with no-one's ideology. He despised systematizers - indeed in his estimation the "will-to-system" is a sign of a lack of integrity. From this (http://www.frostburg.edu/dept/phil/forum/PhilFilm8.htm) page which I'm still reading:

"Nietzsche explicitly refused to develop a philosophical system, suggesting that individual, seemingly disconnected analyses, expressed in short, well-written aphorisms, are more honest and insightful than lengthy, scholarly treatises which tend to bend everything to fit a pre-conceived theory. (Thus, his writings may sometimes be self-contradictory. The way to read Nietzsche is not to figure out how the many things he wrote can be fitted into one abstract formula, a procedure that would be more appropriate for such philosophers as Plato or Kant, but to consider every one of his pieces as a thought experiment which succeeds or fails on its own.)"

ideas about what yoga and BDSM does

[elnigma.livejournal.com]

Wilhelm Reich had good advanced ideas about body memory, which got appropriated into the Church of Scientology (and fictionalized) into their "body thetan" concept. People are well-learned in how the sense of smell can bring back up and back memories from ages earlier.. but they oddly don't think how certain touches can do the same. Body memory is the *last* to go.. hence those jokes about "sorta like riding a bike" for one or "forgetting how to walk". So anyway.. yoga stances often work muscles that aren't used in normal activity, and require precisely moving oneself to poses that set off the deeply-implanted "No, that leaves me vulnerable" physical and emotional reactions. So does BDSM.. and in both a person can realize they may hurt there, but its in a safe place, they are not being used by a bully in this circumstance, or under life-threatening attack. Essentially that cleans up the body memories quite a bit, cause those odd old memories will come up during the session, and be released. YMMV.

Re: ideas about what yoga and BDSM does

[sophiaserpentia.livejournal.com]

Body memories -- this I am coming to understand plays an important part. Sensations are short-circuit triggers for emotions and memories often unincorporated into the greater psyche. Incorporating these repressions are a big part of individuation -- becoming a whole person -- which is what the mystical pursuit is all about, IME and IM(NS)HO.

Things like Yoga, Qigong, BDSM, martial arts, and so on, defy the dualistic flesh/spirit split. They point to an interesting interplay -- to learn spiritually, we must live and experience as creatures of flesh. Flesh enables just as it hinders that spiritual growth. The key to making the interplay a constructive rather than destructive one is discipline.

The spirit and the flesh

[cruelly-kind.livejournal.com]

Indeed, most Christian traditions (as well as many Eastern ones) see spirit and flesh as opposites -- as enemies.

Might as well say that only yin is good, and yang is evil.

But it's true that some people fear the spiritual, just as others fear the flesh.

Re: The spirit and the flesh

[sophiaserpentia.livejournal.com]

They can be enemies. As I just remarked to elnigma, the key to making the two work together seems to be discipline. This is something common to all of the pursuits and traditions brought up in the course of this conversation -- yoga, martial arts, qigong, and BDSM. I'm beginning to suspect that the cultivation of discipline is the largest link between them all, in enabling positive rather than negative "cooperative dissonace" between spirit and flesh.

There are no short-cuts for discipline.

For me the spirit/flesh dissonance/harmony is a subject of constant inspection because I am transgendered. From the very start I felt at least partially alien to my own flesh, perhaps moreso than the average person.

Re: The spirit and the flesh

[cruelly-kind.livejournal.com]

Enemies, perhaps...

I'm suddenly thinking about the difference between karate and aikido (neither of which I know a lot about *g*).

In karate, you reject the attack and the attacker.
In aikido, you embrace the attack and the attacker, and make his energy your own.

So, in spiritual aikido, we do not deny the demands of the flesh, we accept them, but put them to use. This is the principle behind much of Tantric teaching, which also calls for the discipline of which you wrote.

And, interestingly, following Tantra for spiritual reasons has some mind-boggling fleshly benefits.

[vriane.livejournal.com]

The thing is, yes, of coure, you can make parallels between BDSM and Yoga, but what use is this? Just do Yoga or BDSM if you think they are good for your spirituality, I don't see what can be gained from linking the two, there may be an intersection between the two, that does not mean they serve the same purpose.

[sophiaserpentia.livejournal.com]

It is not so much that I am trying to make or force parallels. I am commenting on parallels that I perceive. Once I perceive something, I cannot deny the perception thereof, and if it is a curious and seemingly paradoxical perception such as this one, I am compelled.

[vriane.livejournal.com]

Why paradoxical?

[sophiaserpentia.livejournal.com]

Seemingly paradoxical because yoga, qigong, meditation, etc. are perceived as spiritual pursuits while BDSM is seen (by many) as a purely physical/sensual pursuit.

[vriane.livejournal.com]

What do you care about the many?

[sophiaserpentia.livejournal.com]

"The many" are those who are most likely to form one's opinions on a subject. Unless one is a "rugged individualist."

[vriane.livejournal.com]

""The many" are those who are most likely to form one's opinions on a subject."

Your opinion? Or the opinion of others? Apparently, not yours, so that we are back to my preceding question.

[sophiaserpentia.livejournal.com]

We tend to allow others to form our opinions for us until we have reason to believe otherwise.

So, when people say "BDSM is a fleshly/sensual pursuit" we are inclined to believe them until we have reason to believe otherwise -- until we try it and that doesn't match our own perceptions.

[herbalgrrl.livejournal.com]

They can be made to serve the same purpose with wonderful results... this encompasses not just the phsyical disciplines of breath, asana , etc. but the mindful tabboo breaking that is used so effectively by some tantric sects . They work well as puja which I've found most effective to incorp. into everything from bhakti to Astarte rites.
I have an ancient essay on bdsm as Thelemic practice that can be found at http://www.caoto.org

[akaiyume.livejournal.com]

I am not sure that I understand how one can grow/explore in a "karma-safe" realm. One _may_ be able to derive the courage there to start exploring once one is outside of that area, or possibly an inspiration about what to explore. But it seems to me that real growth and exploration have to happen under whatever state/realm is normative for the individual in question. Otherwise it is just a theoretical exercise in 'what if' as anything learned and carried over IS going to have karmic repercussion. At least that is my opinion/understanding of the matter. But I will admit I think in strange ways sometimes.

[sophiaserpentia.livejournal.com]

But I will admit I think in strange ways sometimes.

The way you are thinking is forcing me to examine all of my preconceptions. This is a GOOD thing. I do not like to be complacent in my thoughts and conclusions, ever. So keep it up. :)


I am not sure that I understand how one can grow/explore in a "karma-safe" realm.

Perhaps I should try to explain what I mean by this. Whatever we do, own, become, or even are, ties us inextricably deeper into the "warp and woof" of the fabric of existence. So by doing or even just by existing we are drawn further away from the state of repose which (it seems to me) is the origin and destination of all things. (I state this without placing a value judgment on whether it is "good" or "bad" to be deeply embroiled in the warp and woof of reality.)


But it seems to me that real growth and exploration have to happen under whatever state/realm is normative for the individual in question.

Hmm... I think I know what you mean by this... but it seems to me that what causes us to grow, adapt, and change, is being far from our state of equilibrium. This tends to come at a high cost, though. So what I mean by a "karma-safe realm" is that BDSM is a controlled environment that allows us to experience things far from equilibrium in a way that, if done right, involves a lower karmic cost.

A consentual rape scene, for example, does not involve the same karmic cost as an actual rape.