beers and queers.

[sophiaserpentia]

Instead of going to the Quarter, lunablue talked me into going with her to her friend axiomatical's house. Anyone who has a mathematical name can't be all bad, and I liked axiomatical instantly. :)

The theme for the evening was beer (something I very rarely drink, actually) and this TV show, "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy." I had never seen it before so this was a new experience. This show is total fluff; five gay guys take on the challenge of transforming a caveman into a 'metrosexual' with a few decent things in his wardrobe, a skin care regimen, and at least a little bit of culture.

Even when I was in high school I knew that women tend to prefer the friendship of gay men over straight men. Neurological research suggests one strong reason why -- gay men often have brains which are closer to the typical 'female' configuration than straight men, so they think and socialize more similarly. Even so, I'm not sure that adding a touch of gay to a straight guy is necessarily going to improve things. Time will tell.

Rabbi Shmuley Boteach (never one to shy away from pontificating) wrote some interesting thoughts on this show for Beliefnet recently. His essay started out with an interesting insight:

As I watched this clueless cowboy being taught how to clean up after himself, dig wax out of his ears, and speak romantically to a woman rather than his horse, it suddenly struck me that this is exactly what the women in my life did for me.

But, then he sticks his foot in it:

But how can women teach men these things today? Raised in a world where they get attention by flashing a thong strap rather than a kind smile, immersed in a workplace where masculine aggression rather than feminine sensitivity earns a promotion, there are precious few ladies left.

And in a world where there are no ladies, there can be no gentlemen.

Honestly, what can a college girl who flashes her breasts for the "Girls Gone Wild" videos teach a man about civility? What can a woman who prances around in her underwear on the Victoria's Secret Fashion Show teach a guy about dignified bearing?

Is this what passes for "insightful social commentary" in religious circles these days? Would every female on my friends' list who has ever flashed her breasts for a "Girls Gone Wild" video or pranced around in underwear in the Victoria's Secret Fashion Show, raise your hands please? Is that not the most demeaning comment you've read in a while?

Comments

[waysmeanstonola.livejournal.com]

i've flashed at mardi gras, but it was at the floats and not for "girls gone wild" (though they were at the boot).

that has got to be the most demeaning comment i've ever heard.

[sophiaserpentia.livejournal.com]

Hehehe. I thought about making a parenthetical exclusion for local members of my friends list, but was afraid that would be demeaning. *I've* even flashed during Mardi Gras. (Why in the heck anyone would give *me* beads for flashing I have no idea, but I do get some that way...)

[ranastella.livejournal.com]

Ugh. That is disgusting.

[hai-kah-uhk.livejournal.com]

Actually, what appeals to me about gay men is that a major set of concerns becomes irrelevant. They can hold a conversation with me without feeling compelled to weigh every word for, "Is she compatible with me?" They're not intimidated by my intellect or smitten by my cuteness. And most importantly, I don't have to dread the question, "So, want to go back to my place?" or any of its equivalents. Gay men don't mind that I'm married - straight men either stop talking to me entirely or feel me out for poly tendencies.

I've got all the sex in my life I need. Now I need friends who contribute anything but. Then again, I'm not 100% committed to being a woman, myself, so maybe that's another factor. Homosexuality is one way to blur the gender dividing line. I have other ways. Maybe it's just an issue of tolerance and understanding.

[soulsong.livejournal.com]

I agree with your thoughts on gay men. I had made a few new online male friends recently and was wondering why they seemed to be so damn easy to get along with and so much fun to be around, and then of course I found out they were gay, and that explained everything. In contrast a hetero male guy I was becoming friendly with was all prickly and obsessive about gaining my attention until he found out I was 'taken' at which point he decided he shouldn't chat with me (online) any more since I had a boyfriend. I can only put this down to the fact that male/female friendship seems to be a continuous bundle of sexual tension until one or the other says they're gay. When hetero guys like a woman as a friend, it usually seems to also they'd like to sleep with them, all things being equal. It certainly doesnt work the other way. Gay guys are totally outside that bizarre interpersonal dynamic. I think that kitsch song, "Gay Boyfriend" really summed it up for me :)

[hai-kah-uhk.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I know what you mean.

Ironically, the one place where this wasn't true, in my experience, was art school. You'd think that someone like me would find art school an easy place to make friends. Even when I didn't have a boyfriend, I was more interested in platonic, intellectual relationships (figuring something more intimate would come along in its own time). But most of those art students were ruled by their hormones to the point that nothing else mattered. I was told point blank by more than one really cool gay guy that he wasn't interested in hanging out with me because he was gay and I was a girl. I suppose the look of shock on my face after being told that only fed into these people's fervent belief that we'd have been badly matched. But the truth was, I had no good response because I was desperately trying to find some way to process their bizarre leap in logic.

Now that I'm older, wiser, and more able to say what I think, I really want to go back and tell those bozos, "It's a movie, you git, not a frigging make-out session! And we're film majors! We're supposed to go out and see movies!"

[gentlemaitresse.livejournal.com]

Actually, other than the fact that feminine sensitivity has never earned anyone a promotion in the workplace (but feminine assertiveness probably has), I kinda think he makes a good point. Is it dignified for a lady to go flashing her body at people? I mean, you can do that if you want to, but then don't blame the guy too much for acting like a pig.

[sophiaserpentia.livejournal.com]

other than the fact that feminine sensitivity has never earned anyone a promotion in the workplace (but feminine assertiveness probably has)

I won't debate that. Male sensitivity has never earned anyone a promotion either, for that matter...


Is it dignified for a lady to go flashing her body at people?

That's certainly up for debate, but the reason I find the rabbi's comments so offensive, is that he writes as though this is something the average woman does or has done. He also feels that women who do such a thing have forever nullified any semblance of dignity within themselves. Even if it is undignified to flash one's body, has this really undermined femininity? The rabbi would have you believe it has.

[gentlemaitresse.livejournal.com]

Oh, now I see what you're saying about the insinuation that the average woman has done this. Sorry I didn't get it the first time around. Just attribute my slow brain to my old age. ;-)

[archanglrobriel.livejournal.com]

Well I tell ya, the Metrosexual phenomena and the Queer Eye influence is sure making it hard to know who to flirt with....

but I still love Queer Eye and here's why: because it's putting names and faces and personalities to the stereotypes and making it a lot harder for the people who watch that show to be intolerant. They're genuinely kind when they make over a straight guy - you can tell that the Fab five really want him to do well and they're doing this make over because they feel it'll make his life better. They may make some bitchy comments about his taste, but it's all gently done and that's what holds my attention. At the end of almost every show, even the most hostile straight man (and there have been a few) has expressed feelings of gratitude and kinship for their new gay friends.
I also feel like the show is teaching straight men how to be around gay men. It seems to be saying "See? You can be friends with us and deal with us being around you and even touching you and it's not going to make you gay...we're not going to hit on you and even if we flirt with you, it's ok. We're not going to molest you or grope you or make moves on you..."
Well, not right away anyway. *laugh* And if we do flirt with you, you can handle it. You're not going to fall over backwards inadvertently into a big pool of anal sex.

[ex-mommybir.livejournal.com]

I also feel like the show is teaching straight men how to be around gay men.

I've seen the show once, thought it was cute but not a revolution, and wondered why people think it's so fab. I haven't seen anybody describe it from this interesting angle, however. If this is the case, it could be A Good Thing. Of course, I'm married to a man (http://pistorius.livejournal.com) who works in a profession dominated by gay men (he's a church organist), who's used to socializing with them, having close friendships with them, and even getting hit on occasionally. He doesn't pull out his handgun and shoot some guy who gently suggests a date; he just mentions he has to get home to his wife. *g*

[sophiaserpentia.livejournal.com]

You make some excellent points. I wonder how many straight men actually watch the show, though? At this point I think the audience is still primarily women and gay/bi men. But women do have some influence over what they get their husbands/boyfriends/friends to watch, so some of this will certainly work via "osmosis"...

[archanglrobriel.livejournal.com]

Well admittedly being in the Bay area it's hard to get a good "take" on the ways of the straight population, but the other day I was at the men's cologne and self care products counter at Macy's getting Soren some Zirh products and the woman there told me that they were selling out since Queer Eye had come on and orders were in from the Macy's central command that they were going to expand the men's products section out to take up similar amounts of space to the women's care products counters because of the huge surge in demand.
Now maybe this is all women urging their men to take care of themselves, but during the time I was at the counter three other guys came up to get Zihr products and none of them buzzed my gaydar....
it makes ya go hmmmm for sure.

[liminalia.livejournal.com]

OK, so I agree the rabbi could have phrased it much better, but I do think he has a point. There is little incentive anymore for anyone to act with gentility, and I, for one, regret it.

[azaz-al.livejournal.com]

*raises hands* Hey, I LOVE flashing. ;) As you well know!

His comment is demeaning on many levels, I would like to dig in past the surface here.

Why the fuck should I teach a man how not to live like a fucking pig? I'm sure, from my own experiences as a mother of a small boy, that most men's mother's did not condone filthy rooms, filthy bodies, etc. My boyfriend appreciates my exhibitionistic streak AND cleans out his own goddamn earwax - brushes his teeth, too! Why should women be men's body servants, teaching them civilized behavior? Didn't they have parents? And what is the connection between flashing people and keeping a decently clean body and house?

And why would I want to be a "lady"? By definition, a lady is a high-class woman who has a certain public reputation to uphoild. She must always appear calm, cool and collected; she must never reveal her true feelings if they are socially unacceptable; she must wear confining, uncomfortable clothing even in the intense heat of the Southern summer; she must ignore her sexual urges until someone agrees to marry her; in short, she must be an artificial being constantly holding her true self in check in exchange for a hypocritical societal approval. There is little evidence that men treated women with gentility when "ladies" were more common - everyone just pretended that child molestation, wife beating, protitution and abortion didn't exist then.

I am PROUD to be a SHAMELESS WHORE. SHAME implies I should feel guilt for actions which I find pleasurable but which do not hurt other people. WHORES are women in charge of their own sexuality and life, instead of being a simpering lady attached to a man, cleaning up his dirty laundry, dishes, etc., without complaint.

[cullent.livejournal.com]

"Why the fuck should I teach a man how not to live like a fucking pig?

I was gonna say (something like) that, but you got there first! Actually, I deeply appreciate the civilizing influence the women in my life have had on me, but I hate the implication that a) men need women to teach them how to behave and that b) women are therefore responsible for men's behavior.

[azaz-al.livejournal.com]

Yup.
Although (again as the mom of a small boy) I think I am a woman in a (very short) man's life telling him how to behave, so that hopefully his girlfriend won't have to! And I am not ladylike about it - I march him right back in the bathroom and make him wipe that seat off! :P