sophiaserpentia (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
sophiaserpentia) wrote2003-05-09 07:44 am
sophiaserpentia) wrote2003-05-09 07:44 am
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The comments on my poll of yesterday have been extremely thought-provoking -- especially those of ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
lady_babalon and that of akaiyume. Thank you!
I wanted to summarize some of my realizations on this subject since yesterday and sum things up a bit from comments that I made on this thread and elsewhere.
The connection between BDSM and yoga (and, we should perhaps add, martial arts) seemed to be immediately obvious to some, while non-existent to others. This may be because people who practice BDSM derive a wide range of results from it. Some see it mostly or entirely as a means of deriving physical pleasure. Others, such as myself, see it as much more than that -- it provides for us physical, emotional, and even spiritual pleasure.
One parallel that I mentioned tocruelly_kind is between the redemption offered by worshipping a god or goddess, who redeems by "forgiving sins" or "clearing karma"... and the karmic release one finds in offering submissive service. Both create a "karma-safe" realm in which the worshipper/submissive is free to grow and explore.
Much of BDSM is of course tied into the way the human animal works; the physique, the breath, the chemical side of the emotions, the wiring of neurons, and so forth. But yoga, qigong, and perhaps martial arts (which I do not have first hand experience of) are also means of tying in the workings of the human animal with subtler aspects of existence. In my experience these are more than simply activities that work on the same parts of the human body; they yielded very similar results. For me, being tied up and flogged, being dominated and pressed into service, were profoundly spiritual experiences. I also had spiritual insights from even a single experience of being dominant.
Another possible reason for the resistance is that people do not want to see the spiritual as tied so innately to the workings of the flesh. Certainly my chosen tradition of Gnosticism is very disparaging in this regard. Yet, karma, as experienced through the workings (and failings) of flesh, provide the only means by which we learn.
Throughout this topic I have been thinking of John of the Cross, who was able to grow spiritually from his experiences of torture at the hands of the Carmelites. He wrote, in "The Dark Night of the Soul":
2. In darkness, and secure,
by the secret ladder, disguised,
- ah, the sheer grace! -
in darkness and concealment,
my house being now all stilled.
3. On that glad night,
in secret, for no one saw me,
nor did I look at anything,
with no other light or guide
than the one that burned in my heart.
4. This guided me
more surely than the light of noon
to where he was awaiting me
- him I knew so well -
there in a place where no one appeared.
translated by Kieran Kavanaugh, OCD, and Otilio Rodriguez, OCD, revised edition (1991).
Perhaps, too, it is simply because I am trained as a mathematician to find patterns that aren't immediately obvious; this might lead me to readily conjecture patterns that don't exist.
lady_babalon and that of akaiyume. Thank you!I wanted to summarize some of my realizations on this subject since yesterday and sum things up a bit from comments that I made on this thread and elsewhere.
The connection between BDSM and yoga (and, we should perhaps add, martial arts) seemed to be immediately obvious to some, while non-existent to others. This may be because people who practice BDSM derive a wide range of results from it. Some see it mostly or entirely as a means of deriving physical pleasure. Others, such as myself, see it as much more than that -- it provides for us physical, emotional, and even spiritual pleasure.
One parallel that I mentioned to
cruelly_kind is between the redemption offered by worshipping a god or goddess, who redeems by "forgiving sins" or "clearing karma"... and the karmic release one finds in offering submissive service. Both create a "karma-safe" realm in which the worshipper/submissive is free to grow and explore.Much of BDSM is of course tied into the way the human animal works; the physique, the breath, the chemical side of the emotions, the wiring of neurons, and so forth. But yoga, qigong, and perhaps martial arts (which I do not have first hand experience of) are also means of tying in the workings of the human animal with subtler aspects of existence. In my experience these are more than simply activities that work on the same parts of the human body; they yielded very similar results. For me, being tied up and flogged, being dominated and pressed into service, were profoundly spiritual experiences. I also had spiritual insights from even a single experience of being dominant.
Another possible reason for the resistance is that people do not want to see the spiritual as tied so innately to the workings of the flesh. Certainly my chosen tradition of Gnosticism is very disparaging in this regard. Yet, karma, as experienced through the workings (and failings) of flesh, provide the only means by which we learn.
Throughout this topic I have been thinking of John of the Cross, who was able to grow spiritually from his experiences of torture at the hands of the Carmelites. He wrote, in "The Dark Night of the Soul":
2. In darkness, and secure,
by the secret ladder, disguised,
- ah, the sheer grace! -
in darkness and concealment,
my house being now all stilled.
3. On that glad night,
in secret, for no one saw me,
nor did I look at anything,
with no other light or guide
than the one that burned in my heart.
4. This guided me
more surely than the light of noon
to where he was awaiting me
- him I knew so well -
there in a place where no one appeared.
translated by Kieran Kavanaugh, OCD, and Otilio Rodriguez, OCD, revised edition (1991).
Perhaps, too, it is simply because I am trained as a mathematician to find patterns that aren't immediately obvious; this might lead me to readily conjecture patterns that don't exist.
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The way you are thinking is forcing me to examine all of my preconceptions. This is a GOOD thing. I do not like to be complacent in my thoughts and conclusions, ever. So keep it up. :)
I am not sure that I understand how one can grow/explore in a "karma-safe" realm.
Perhaps I should try to explain what I mean by this. Whatever we do, own, become, or even are, ties us inextricably deeper into the "warp and woof" of the fabric of existence. So by doing or even just by existing we are drawn further away from the state of repose which (it seems to me) is the origin and destination of all things. (I state this without placing a value judgment on whether it is "good" or "bad" to be deeply embroiled in the warp and woof of reality.)
But it seems to me that real growth and exploration have to happen under whatever state/realm is normative for the individual in question.
Hmm... I think I know what you mean by this... but it seems to me that what causes us to grow, adapt, and change, is being far from our state of equilibrium. This tends to come at a high cost, though. So what I mean by a "karma-safe realm" is that BDSM is a controlled environment that allows us to experience things far from equilibrium in a way that, if done right, involves a lower karmic cost.
A consentual rape scene, for example, does not involve the same karmic cost as an actual rape.